rugerkahr

Nice... Notice my username. I love my PM9. Carry it (legally) every day.

rugerkahr

Actually, it may not. I've hard reset my 660 more than once. It gets set to factory specifications and I lose all user SETTINGS, but my favorites are still there and so is the one custom .jpg I made for my startup/splash screen. I still keep the current.gpx favorites file on my computer along with the rest of the backup, however. Also, to the OP... Note that backing up will NOT backup the firmware. That resides in some internal memory area that is not accessible via USB as the rest of the unit is. I mention this because people have wanted to revert to previous firmware because a new update was buggy and when they copy/pasted everything back to the Nüvi, they were still stuck with the bad update. It must be run via the proprietary Garmin loader that comes with the firmware.

goompus68

I'm also a concealled carry permit holder, and carry as well. Have you ever looked up the "clipdraw", which eliminates the need for holsters? I carry mine this way in the small of my back. I don't even notice it's there!!
Clipdraw… For Secure Carry Without a Holster

rugerkahr

No, I will NOT carry a firearm, especially one without a manual safety, in a manner where the trigger is not fully covered. It's just not a good idea and it's a great way to have a negligent discharge into your leg or something. Other than "clipping on", it's no better or safer than Mexican carry, which is also largely frowned upon. I pocket carry my PM9 in an all leather pocket holster. Larger stuff goes IWB with either a Crossbreed Supertuck or Comp-Tac MTAC holster on the belt.

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goompus68

I've been carrying this way for over 7 years without even a hint of incident. I have the pocket holster, but don't use it, as I believe that I'd be more apt to accidentally discharge using THAT system when drawing quickly, as your index finger is too close to the trigger when trying to draw. With the extremely heavy trigger pull, and the way it gets drawn from the small of the back, my index finger naturally finds the slide initially, and not the trigger. I suppose if you are afraid of shooting yourself, you shouldn't own a Kahr.

rugerkahr

Finger along the slide, same as you. I'm not afraid of shooting myself. Go to Gunsite in AZ with that carry set up and try to do a course. They won't even let you on the range with that. I've personally seen it happen. Here's a picture of how the draw works with that same holster design and a P3AT. It comes out with index finger on the slide. I also have the advantage, unlike you, of establishing a proper grip in a "hinky" situation...and no one's the wiser.

You honestly think the Elite trigger group on the Kahrs is "extremely heavy"? Man, you need to work on your grip strength or something. It's one of the smoothest, lightest DA triggers out there!

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goompus68

Actually, the clipdraw works well with the front pocket as well, and I like the way it "holds" my MK just where I want it, without adding the bulk to my pocket at the same time. Either way, I got your private message, and just might do that... Thanks for the advice!

rugerkahr

Whoops, I added a question to my post just above yours about the trigger. Also, I'm not sure how much I'd "trust" that clip being taped to the slide. Yes, I know it's strong tape, blah, blah... But salt/sweat/cleaners/oils over time? Who knows and I'm sure it's been just peachy for you so don't waste time posting it.

goompus68

The tape was a concern of mine, initially, as well, but it's lasted 7 years!! They give you extra as well.... I don't live near salt water, though, which may affect it. Also, I'm a lefty, and that may be why I don't like my pocket holster as much.

rugerkahr

Human sweat has a lot of salt in it. I know it's dry (humidity) in CO, but I still sweat my butt off in the summer time when I go back home to AZ, which is at least as dry. How sharp are the edges on that clipdraw? I've heard of people slicing themselves on the slide when it cycles during firing. Maybe they mounted it too low or something. Also, it doesn't seem like a lot of surface area for that tape to grab on since it looks like it's taped to the slide serrations.

goompus68

The trick is to make sure to snad down any edges that you think are sharp before installing it. I'm a pretty sweaty guy sometimes, too, and clean my MK every couple of weeks, but 3M has really done it with that adhesive. I haven't had issues w/ cuts.

rugerkahr

So, do you honestly think that trigger is "extremely heavy"? If so, you'd absolutely HATE a DAO revolver.

HumVee

ROFL!

I think you gentlemen are in the wrong forum - although I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread!

While I appreciate the "minimalist" design of the ClipDraw, I'm with rugerkahr in wanting a conceal holster that covers the trigger, as an added safety measure. In my past life in law enforcement, we had incidents with officers trying to return their weapon to concealment, and having something (like an unsnapped belt retention loop) slipping into the trigger guard and depressing the trigger as the gun is pushed back into the pants - BOOM!

That being said, as long as you're aware of how your equipment works, and take appropriate care to remain safe (as it sounds like you do, goompus68), then all is good!

rugerkahr

Exactly. This place is rather bland anyway. As long as the people in the thread don't mind things going off track a bit, who cares? But, of course you always have the "hall monitors" (i.e. regular members) who think they have to play moderator/admin and make comments about how things got off topic as if they're adding anything relevant themselves.

Let me guess... One word... GLOCK. I own several and even I know to keep the booger hook off the bang switch and PAY ATTTENTION and you won't have a negligent discharge.

HumVee

Hey! This is a good forum! And the moderators here are very laid back! As long as you keep the discussion fairly family friendly, don't flame people and don't discuss things that are illegal they don't get on your case.

Glock, yes. When the handguns were first marketed to law enforcement (instead of just military applications), the lack of manual safety's and only having just the so-called "trigger safety" mechanism led to a number of issues that had to be addressed by training and or had to be modified by Glock. But the issues were eventually all worked out and it's become a very common sidearm for law enforcement. Personally, I don't understand why Glock is so resistant to adding additional safety mechanisms - their competitors that are are now making polymer frame weapons certain don't seem to mind!

rugerkahr

Because GLOCK is a worldwide phenomenon and they feel they don't need to. Civilain/LE (yes, LEOs ARE civilians, too) markets aren't their primary focus. Not even the US market.

One of the four basic rules. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are committed to firing. Same "manual of arms" as a Kahr...or an XD...or even a pocket popper like a Kel-Tec, Seecamp, Rorbaugh, etc.. No external manual safeties on any of those pistols, either. Many are also polymer framed handguns. Plenty of pistols without manual safeties. Same goes for a revolver...no external safety there...

HumVee

No external safetys on revolvers, but many models do incorporate internal safey designs to prevent accidental discharge from drop or impact. Also, revolvers have long double-action trigger pulls when the hammer isn't cocked back to single-action position. Keeping your finger out of the trigger guard unless and until you plan to use a firearm is always good advice.

rugerkahr

That has nothing to do with ND'ing from pulling or snagging the trigger. Other than an actual weapon malfunction/broken part, there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge"...it's NEGLIGENT, even when dropped. GLOCKS have always had a striker block safety that prevents it from firing when dropped. So does Kahr and XD. It is physically impossible for the striker (firing pin) to pass forward of the breech face and hit the cartridge primer when the trigger is not pulled, even when dropped on its muzzle from a helicopter. They actually did that test. The striker block plunger is only pushed up and out of the way during the trigger pull and is allowed to "spring back" to the safe position when the trigger is released. If you field strip a GLOCK, you can see this plunger as a round silver "button" on the right underside of the slide. It's along the same design of the Schwartz safety in more modern 1911s. The plunger is only pushed up and out of the way when the grip safety (proper firing grip) is fully depressed. The 80s series Colt 1911s (and copies) accomplished this same thing horrendously by disengaging the safety with the actually trigger pull. Everyone knows you DO NOT MESS with the sweet, crisp SA pull of a 1911 trigger other than to lighten it! Yeah, I know a little about this stuff as it's a serious lifestyle...and another expensive hobby.

goompus68

I got rid of my Glock22 years ago in favor of the Springfield XD 40's grip safety, but as far as my Kahr and the clipdraw, I'm completely satisfied and feel completely safe with it in the small of my back. Guess it boils down to being RESPONSIBLE. End of story.

rugerkahr

And, what exactly does that grip safety do for you over the GLOCK design without one? You grip the weapon, same as ANY other, pull the trigger and it fires...with NO manipulation of an external thumb type safety...because there isn't one. It MIGHT save your ass if you stupidly reach for a dropped/falling gun. NEVER reach for a dropped gun. Let it hit the deck, learn from the mistake, recover/bitch about the scratch/nick and live another day without a NEGLIGENT discharge from trying to grab it. Even then the grip safety might not "save" you.

goompus68

When the XD is under my pillow, and I'm sleeping, it takes more effort to SHOOT MYSELF!!

rugerkahr

Uh, okay then... Whatever floats your boat.

goompus68

The XD is more accurate than my Glock22 w/ aftermarket Meggar adjustable sights installed by gunsmith, and to be honest, I was actually worried about my cat stepping on the trigger accidentally when I slept!! I still think the XD is a superior weapon to the G22.....

goompus68

Not by much, though

rugerkahr

I'll bet those same sights, or very similar ones, can be fit on a Glock. I'm running aftermarket night sights on my carry G19 as well. Again, that has nothing to do with the grip safety you initially claimed as to why you ended up with the XD.

Again... Uh, okay... We have three cats and that has NEVER been a concern. I'll take my "pussy" in another form, please.

goompus68

The Meggar adjustables WERE ON the Glock...... and the XD is more accurate outta the box. Even so, the funniest part of this chat is that I'm very cautious, and I'm totally at ease using my Kahr w/ clipdraw compared to just simply having my G22 on the bed w/ the cat around. And we won't even COMPARE the new XD-M to glock.....I'm done here.

HumVee

Just because you don't reach for the gun doesn't mean that it might not go off when it strikes the pavement (yes, assuming imperfect internal design). If that occurs, then the direction that barrel was pointing at the time of the discharge, and what was downrange would become a matter of extreme importance to me. Negligent homocide is still a terrible thing. You can say "keep a hold of your gun," but there are plenty of situations where a gun can be dropped even if you weren't being clumsy - like when you're fighting for your life with a suspect.

You simply can't count on a firearm always being treated with care and respect as the way to avoid discharges. Yes, "GLOCKS have always had a striker block safety," but I know for a fact that the initial design failed during a police training, when a holstered gun was struck by a baton. Glock scrambled to get every weapon retrofitted. Even the best designed safety mechanism can fail due to manufacturing defect or other causes. Having multiple safeties on a weapon are one way to make sure the weapon doesn't discharge even if one of the mechanisms fail.

Thanks for the great discussion, everyone! Let's keep it civil.

HumVee

LOL...it looks like one of the forum moderators made a whole new sub-forum for us: "Off-Topic"! They also changed the subject from "260W reboots..." to "Concealed Carry."

Thanks for that, and for putting up with us, moderator!

Andy

If you guys want a different thread title just let me know.

GNSS

Off Topic is an understatement. What are some people thinking? Obviously they need more than a GPS to find their way, lost would be putting it mildly.